Comments on: Semantic Markup – Create, Support and Extract http://nate.koechley.com/blog/2005/02/09/semantic-markup-create-support-and-extract/ Web professional with deep frontend engineering expertise skilled in user experience design and product strategy. Successful team leader, manager, and executive. Sought-after speaker, writer, and trainer. Mon, 24 May 2010 15:52:17 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Nate Koechley http://nate.koechley.com/blog/2005/02/09/semantic-markup-create-support-and-extract/comment-page-1/#comment-145 Nate Koechley Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://nate.koechley.com/blog/?p=271#comment-145 yes, i know this isn't the most semantic website. you're welcome to leave all the nasty comments you want. It will be more semantic someday, but for now this is just an informal little blog. ok, on with the comments. thanks. yes, i know this isn’t the most semantic website. you’re welcome to leave all the nasty comments you want. It will be more semantic someday, but for now this is just an informal little blog.

ok, on with the comments. thanks.

]]> By: Joshua Porter http://nate.koechley.com/blog/2005/02/09/semantic-markup-create-support-and-extract/comment-page-1/#comment-146 Joshua Porter Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://nate.koechley.com/blog/?p=271#comment-146 Nate, this is an interesting idea. However, I'm confused by the term "Layered Semanticm Markup". As you state, there is only one document marked up semantically. This leads me to believe that neither the markup nor the semantics are layered, which would seem contrary to the term itself. Am I missing something? Nate, this is an interesting idea. However, I’m confused by the term “Layered Semanticm Markup”. As you state, there is only one document marked up semantically. This leads me to believe that neither the markup nor the semantics are layered, which would seem contrary to the term itself.

Am I missing something?

]]> By: lantzilla http://nate.koechley.com/blog/2005/02/09/semantic-markup-create-support-and-extract/comment-page-1/#comment-147 lantzilla Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://nate.koechley.com/blog/?p=271#comment-147 If I had to garner a guess, I'd say that it's "layered", because we break down the components by function HTML (Structure), CSS (Presentation) DOM/Javascript (Behavior). The point being that you can strip away the presentation layer, and the document remains semantically the same. Take all those components, stack them on top of each other, and you have the concept of layers. If I had to garner a guess, I’d say that it’s “layered”, because we break down the components by function HTML (Structure), CSS (Presentation) DOM/Javascript (Behavior). The point being that you can strip away the presentation layer, and the document remains semantically the same. Take all those components, stack them on top of each other, and you have the concept of layers.

]]> By: Nate Koechley http://nate.koechley.com/blog/2005/02/09/semantic-markup-create-support-and-extract/comment-page-1/#comment-148 Nate Koechley Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://nate.koechley.com/blog/?p=271#comment-148 <p>Hey Joshua, nice to see you here. I was just reading some of your stuff last night!</p> <p>Lance's guess was pretty close. The idea is a "semantic" foundataion on which the rest of the development is "layered". It's not the world's best TLA, but it works (especially for it's internal uses here at work).</p> <p>That said, we're also trying to do some layering of semantics. It's not particularily intuitive, and I'm not sure of the long-term value yet, but it seems like the right way to go. While most web semantics come from longstanding HTML (as it were), I also think it's possible to <em>grant</em> semantics through consistent use. If every required form element we create is class="required", well, I believe that's better than having 10 different conventions (or none at all).</p> <p>Another example is how I'm coding generic modules. For every module, we're standardizing on <em>head</em>, <em>body</em>, and as necessary <em>footer</em> regions: <pre> <div> <div class="hd"></div> <div class="bd"></div> <div class="ft"></div> </div> </pre> </p> <p>The cite element is good, but more precision by indicating publisher, dateline, byline, author can only help.</p> <p>And so while this "granted semantics" isn't the key of LSM, it's an additional way to think about things, and an additional type of value to add.</p> <p>Again, the main idea was to provide an understanding of meaningful markup and layered development, that didn't use any particular technology in it's description. Basically, saying "tableless" all the time wasn't helping my cause.</p> Hey Joshua, nice to see you here. I was just reading some of your stuff last night!

Lance’s guess was pretty close. The idea is a “semantic” foundataion on which the rest of the development is “layered”. It’s not the world’s best TLA, but it works (especially for it’s internal uses here at work).

That said, we’re also trying to do some layering of semantics. It’s not particularily intuitive, and I’m not sure of the long-term value yet, but it seems like the right way to go. While most web semantics come from longstanding HTML (as it were), I also think it’s possible to grant semantics through consistent use. If every required form element we create is class=”required”, well, I believe that’s better than having 10 different conventions (or none at all).

Another example is how I’m coding generic modules. For every module, we’re standardizing on head, body, and as necessary footer regions:

<div>
  <div class="hd"></div>
  <div class="bd"></div>
  <div class="ft"></div>
</div>

The cite element is good, but more precision by indicating publisher, dateline, byline, author can only help.

And so while this “granted semantics” isn’t the key of LSM, it’s an additional way to think about things, and an additional type of value to add.

Again, the main idea was to provide an understanding of meaningful markup and layered development, that didn’t use any particular technology in it’s description. Basically, saying “tableless” all the time wasn’t helping my cause.

]]> By: Kent Brewster http://nate.koechley.com/blog/2005/02/09/semantic-markup-create-support-and-extract/comment-page-1/#comment-149 Kent Brewster Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://nate.koechley.com/blog/?p=271#comment-149 Erm ... the links to <a href="http://www.hesketh.com/publications/inclusive_web_design_for_the_future/" rel="nofollow">Progressive Enhancement</a> and <a href="http://www.onlinetools.org/articles/unobtrusivejavascript/" rel="nofollow">Unobtrusive Javascript</a> are busted. Erm … the links to Progressive Enhancement and Unobtrusive Javascript are busted.

]]> By: Nate Koechley http://nate.koechley.com/blog/2005/02/09/semantic-markup-create-support-and-extract/comment-page-1/#comment-150 Nate Koechley Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://nate.koechley.com/blog/?p=271#comment-150 Good catch Kent, I fixed the typo. Thanks. Good catch Kent, I fixed the typo. Thanks.

]]> By: strimble http://nate.koechley.com/blog/2005/02/09/semantic-markup-create-support-and-extract/comment-page-1/#comment-151 strimble Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://nate.koechley.com/blog/?p=271#comment-151 Hey Nate, <p> Good article! In response to your comment on Feb 11, I'm guessing that saying 'tableless' wouldn't help your cause since if a page is using semantic markup, wouldn't it mean that tables should be used for tabular data? So, it wouldn't exactly be 'tableless'...right? </p> <p> Oh, and btw, my site isn't semantic either and I think it sucks too! Especially the part with the jokes that I try to hide by having a blog (the one that I interviewed with). I don't seem to get any nasty comments about it though. But you can leave some if you'd like! I won't get offended. </p> Hey Nate,

Good article! In response to your comment on Feb 11, I’m guessing that saying ‘tableless’ wouldn’t help your cause since if a page is using semantic markup, wouldn’t it mean that tables should be used for tabular data? So, it wouldn’t exactly be ‘tableless’…right?

Oh, and btw, my site isn’t semantic either and I think it sucks too! Especially the part with the jokes that I try to hide by having a blog (the one that I interviewed with). I don’t seem to get any nasty comments about it though. But you can leave some if you’d like! I won’t get offended.

]]> By: Blog-Fu http://nate.koechley.com/blog/2005/02/09/semantic-markup-create-support-and-extract/comment-page-1/#comment-152 Blog-Fu Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://nate.koechley.com/blog/?p=271#comment-152 <strong>Today’s Wrong Solution is Tomorrow’s Constraint</strong> Nate Koechley has some great ideas. The latest is about Layered Semantic Markup. LSM is a development framework for creating Web documents and experiences. LSM builds for the least capable devices first, then enhances those documents with separate logi... Today’s Wrong Solution is Tomorrow’s Constraint

Nate Koechley has some great ideas. The latest is about Layered Semantic Markup. LSM is a development framework for creating Web documents and experiences. LSM builds for the least capable devices first, then enhances those documents with separate logi…

]]> By: Blog-Fu http://nate.koechley.com/blog/2005/02/09/semantic-markup-create-support-and-extract/comment-page-1/#comment-153 Blog-Fu Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://nate.koechley.com/blog/?p=271#comment-153 <strong>Today’s Wrong Solution is Tomorrow’s Constraint</strong> Nate Koechley has some great ideas. The latest is about Layered Semantic Markup. LSM is a development framework for creating Web documents and experiences. LSM builds for the least capable devices first, then enhances those documents with separate logi... Today’s Wrong Solution is Tomorrow’s Constraint

Nate Koechley has some great ideas. The latest is about Layered Semantic Markup. LSM is a development framework for creating Web documents and experiences. LSM builds for the least capable devices first, then enhances those documents with separate logi…

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