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	<title>Comments on: Same Language, New Dialect</title>
	<atom:link href="http://nate.koechley.com/blog/2006/02/08/same-language-new-dialect/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://nate.koechley.com/blog/2006/02/08/same-language-new-dialect/</link>
	<description>I&#039;m a web technologist interested in product and user experience design strategy with deep expertise in frontend engineering &#38; web development.</description>
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		<title>By: Max Kiesler - Designer &#187; Blog Archive &#187; How to Make Your AJAX Applications Accessible - 40 Tutorials and Articles</title>
		<link>http://nate.koechley.com/blog/2006/02/08/same-language-new-dialect/comment-page-1/#comment-128415</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Kiesler - Designer &#187; Blog Archive &#187; How to Make Your AJAX Applications Accessible - 40 Tutorials and Articles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 08:48:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nate.koechley.com/blog/?p=370#comment-128415</guid>
		<description>[...] Same Language, New Dialect First, accessibility: Advanced interactions and behavior provided via JavaScript must be enhancements, not the sole way to accomplish a task. In desktop cut-and-paste, there are at least three ways: keyboard shortcuts; &#8220;Edit&#8221; menu options; and drag and drop. Accessibility isn&#8217;t an optional characteristic of the Web. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Same Language, New Dialect First, accessibility: Advanced interactions and behavior provided via JavaScript must be enhancements, not the sole way to accomplish a task. In desktop cut-and-paste, there are at least three ways: keyboard shortcuts; &#8220;Edit&#8221; menu options; and drag and drop. Accessibility isn&#8217;t an optional characteristic of the Web. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: FACTA ET VERBA &#187; recursos y mas recursos AJAX</title>
		<link>http://nate.koechley.com/blog/2006/02/08/same-language-new-dialect/comment-page-1/#comment-3906</link>
		<dc:creator>FACTA ET VERBA &#187; recursos y mas recursos AJAX</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2006 14:09:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nate.koechley.com/blog/?p=370#comment-3906</guid>
		<description>[...] Same Language, New Dialect First, accessibility: Advanced interactions and behavior provided via JavaScript must be enhancements, not the sole way to accomplish a task. In desktop cut-and-paste, there are at least three ways: keyboard shortcuts; &#8220;Edit&#8221; menu options; and drag and drop. Accessibility isn&#8217;t an optional characteristic of the Web. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Same Language, New Dialect First, accessibility: Advanced interactions and behavior provided via JavaScript must be enhancements, not the sole way to accomplish a task. In desktop cut-and-paste, there are at least three ways: keyboard shortcuts; &#8220;Edit&#8221; menu options; and drag and drop. Accessibility isn&#8217;t an optional characteristic of the Web. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: b7j0c</title>
		<link>http://nate.koechley.com/blog/2006/02/08/same-language-new-dialect/comment-page-1/#comment-2541</link>
		<dc:creator>b7j0c</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:53:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nate.koechley.com/blog/?p=370#comment-2541</guid>
		<description>there are economics to consider when considering interface overhauls. our employer isn&#039;t making much more money on its overhauled sites than on previous incarnations. yahoo groups wants to do an overhaul (this is public info). the new yahoo groups will almost certainly make the same money the old yahoo groups did. same with the new yahoo photos. these are now commodity businesses.

now you might say, hey, its not my job to make more money for the site, just to make it better. true. but the economics ultimately comes back down into your schedule sooner or later.

this is not to say an interface cannot induce higher margins, but i would say look at something like linden labs/WoW for an interface that moves way beyond the commodity market, literally breeding addicts. the next step for internet UIs (and high margins) is low-latency and very graphical. note i said internet, not web. the web stack has hit the wall and is already a commodity market with flatish numbers (the only growth is in internationals). in three years, the traffic from graphical environments will be greater than all http traffic. its happening.

want to make the internet interface for the next ten years? in my opinion it is time to dust off the opengl guide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>there are economics to consider when considering interface overhauls. our employer isn&#8217;t making much more money on its overhauled sites than on previous incarnations. yahoo groups wants to do an overhaul (this is public info). the new yahoo groups will almost certainly make the same money the old yahoo groups did. same with the new yahoo photos. these are now commodity businesses.</p>
<p>now you might say, hey, its not my job to make more money for the site, just to make it better. true. but the economics ultimately comes back down into your schedule sooner or later.</p>
<p>this is not to say an interface cannot induce higher margins, but i would say look at something like linden labs/WoW for an interface that moves way beyond the commodity market, literally breeding addicts. the next step for internet UIs (and high margins) is low-latency and very graphical. note i said internet, not web. the web stack has hit the wall and is already a commodity market with flatish numbers (the only growth is in internationals). in three years, the traffic from graphical environments will be greater than all http traffic. its happening.</p>
<p>want to make the internet interface for the next ten years? in my opinion it is time to dust off the opengl guide.</p>
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		<title>By: person</title>
		<link>http://nate.koechley.com/blog/2006/02/08/same-language-new-dialect/comment-page-1/#comment-2481</link>
		<dc:creator>person</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jun 2006 05:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nate.koechley.com/blog/?p=370#comment-2481</guid>
		<description>To be fair people have been employing these techniques for many years, but without an otherwise compelling app, they fail to resonate. The founder of what became Yahoo Mail attempted this long ago with desktop.com and ever since they seem to perk up from time to time. I offer the example of Netvibes. Great site, really a first class aggregator, but over time the dynamic aspects of the site failed to resonate with me, all I noticed was that it took eleven seconds longer than my.yahoo to load the same RSS summaries. So I dropped it and just went back to aggregating in my.yahoo, which lacks features, but my time is a feature too. I know the myspace/cragislist blah blah banter gets old, but there is something to observe in that sites that resonate with users tend to the static.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be fair people have been employing these techniques for many years, but without an otherwise compelling app, they fail to resonate. The founder of what became Yahoo Mail attempted this long ago with desktop.com and ever since they seem to perk up from time to time. I offer the example of Netvibes. Great site, really a first class aggregator, but over time the dynamic aspects of the site failed to resonate with me, all I noticed was that it took eleven seconds longer than my.yahoo to load the same RSS summaries. So I dropped it and just went back to aggregating in my.yahoo, which lacks features, but my time is a feature too. I know the myspace/cragislist blah blah banter gets old, but there is something to observe in that sites that resonate with users tend to the static.</p>
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		<title>By: Victor Tsaran</title>
		<link>http://nate.koechley.com/blog/2006/02/08/same-language-new-dialect/comment-page-1/#comment-708</link>
		<dc:creator>Victor Tsaran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Feb 2006 01:20:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nate.koechley.com/blog/?p=370#comment-708</guid>
		<description>Great blog entry, Nate!
1. Drag-and-drop as a technique does not present accessibility barriers, it is the lack of alternative methods that does... Just like you pointed out. Drag-and-drop is possible on the desktop with mmajor screen readers although I am not sure how many users take advantage of the feature. Explanation is very simple: it is a very unnatural behavior for someone who cannot see, just like as it is unnatural for a sighted person to stay in the room with lights off. :)

2. Point well-taken. People do not expect D&amp;D in the web browser because this is not an expected behavior on the web. The only way people know something is draggable on the desktop is by way of being told by MS or their friend. Well, the logic follows...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great blog entry, Nate!<br />
1. Drag-and-drop as a technique does not present accessibility barriers, it is the lack of alternative methods that does&#8230; Just like you pointed out. Drag-and-drop is possible on the desktop with mmajor screen readers although I am not sure how many users take advantage of the feature. Explanation is very simple: it is a very unnatural behavior for someone who cannot see, just like as it is unnatural for a sighted person to stay in the room with lights off. :)</p>
<p>2. Point well-taken. People do not expect D&amp;D in the web browser because this is not an expected behavior on the web. The only way people know something is draggable on the desktop is by way of being told by MS or their friend. Well, the logic follows&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: James Duncan</title>
		<link>http://nate.koechley.com/blog/2006/02/08/same-language-new-dialect/comment-page-1/#comment-544</link>
		<dc:creator>James Duncan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2006 04:30:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nate.koechley.com/blog/?p=370#comment-544</guid>
		<description>Thanks again for a very timely, informative and well reasoned post.

One of the best things to come out of the past few years in the web (still a really exciting time, no matter which road we all take) was a re-recogniton of the user (whether decision makers knew it or not)

Id hate to think we&#039;d simply forgo any of these gains, giving them interactive decisions theyre either not asking for, or as you said, not expecting.

When theyre asking for them, ofcourse thats a different matter.

Like youve said, done well, they wont have to even ask, they&#039;ll simply adopt the well developed, well designed (and well thought out) experiences presented to them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks again for a very timely, informative and well reasoned post.</p>
<p>One of the best things to come out of the past few years in the web (still a really exciting time, no matter which road we all take) was a re-recogniton of the user (whether decision makers knew it or not)</p>
<p>Id hate to think we&#8217;d simply forgo any of these gains, giving them interactive decisions theyre either not asking for, or as you said, not expecting.</p>
<p>When theyre asking for them, ofcourse thats a different matter.</p>
<p>Like youve said, done well, they wont have to even ask, they&#8217;ll simply adopt the well developed, well designed (and well thought out) experiences presented to them.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Miraglia</title>
		<link>http://nate.koechley.com/blog/2006/02/08/same-language-new-dialect/comment-page-1/#comment-537</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Miraglia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2006 08:59:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nate.koechley.com/blog/?p=370#comment-537</guid>
		<description>Dan, (in case you come back and read this), I also enjoyed your DOM Abuse article; you capture a really telling moment where expertise is thwarted by interface.  I share your concerns to some degree. I find myself saying a lot that DOM animation runs the risk of becoming like the blink and marquee tags thrown in a blender with human growth hormone, the heralding of a new and bizarrely garish age of interaction and visual design. 

But at the same time, Drag and Drop is often the *best* &quot;alternative&quot; way for the user to achieve her goals of collection or arrangement, given limitations intrinsic to primitive gestures available via mouse and keyboard.

What I worry about is that the user&#039;s schema for rich desktop interaction, where complete, won&#039;t make it to the web in complete form.  We&#039;ll provide drag and drop that mirrors the desktop, but not a selection model that does the same; as a result, the user, upon learning she can drag objects around, will have a moment when she is willing to suspend disbelief and imagine that multiselection with control and shift key transformations is possible.  She won&#039;t have to be taught or bombarded with discoverability at that moment; it will just be part of the schema she transfers over from the desktop.  And if it&#039;s not there, that little moment of disappointment will be followed by months during which we will have to convince her yet again to try something new once we have figured out a way to make the interaction better.

Gradual is good in some sense, yes, but moving the whole schema, the whole expectation set, over in one undamaged transplantation -- where possible -- has some compelling advantages for higher-end users.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan, (in case you come back and read this), I also enjoyed your DOM Abuse article; you capture a really telling moment where expertise is thwarted by interface.  I share your concerns to some degree. I find myself saying a lot that DOM animation runs the risk of becoming like the blink and marquee tags thrown in a blender with human growth hormone, the heralding of a new and bizarrely garish age of interaction and visual design. </p>
<p>But at the same time, Drag and Drop is often the *best* &#8220;alternative&#8221; way for the user to achieve her goals of collection or arrangement, given limitations intrinsic to primitive gestures available via mouse and keyboard.</p>
<p>What I worry about is that the user&#8217;s schema for rich desktop interaction, where complete, won&#8217;t make it to the web in complete form.  We&#8217;ll provide drag and drop that mirrors the desktop, but not a selection model that does the same; as a result, the user, upon learning she can drag objects around, will have a moment when she is willing to suspend disbelief and imagine that multiselection with control and shift key transformations is possible.  She won&#8217;t have to be taught or bombarded with discoverability at that moment; it will just be part of the schema she transfers over from the desktop.  And if it&#8217;s not there, that little moment of disappointment will be followed by months during which we will have to convince her yet again to try something new once we have figured out a way to make the interaction better.</p>
<p>Gradual is good in some sense, yes, but moving the whole schema, the whole expectation set, over in one undamaged transplantation &#8212; where possible &#8212; has some compelling advantages for higher-end users.</p>
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		<title>By: natek</title>
		<link>http://nate.koechley.com/blog/2006/02/08/same-language-new-dialect/comment-page-1/#comment-509</link>
		<dc:creator>natek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2006 22:03:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nate.koechley.com/blog/?p=370#comment-509</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comment Dan, and for your post that got me writing in the first place. We&#039;re definitely moving towards a new and better place, but you&#039;re right that it&#039;s not one-size-fits-all, and it doesn&#039;t all need to go live tomorrow. I believe we&#039;re better served (and our users too) if we move thoughfully and steadily, and not shake users lose with too many moves too fast.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comment Dan, and for your post that got me writing in the first place. We&#8217;re definitely moving towards a new and better place, but you&#8217;re right that it&#8217;s not one-size-fits-all, and it doesn&#8217;t all need to go live tomorrow. I believe we&#8217;re better served (and our users too) if we move thoughfully and steadily, and not shake users lose with too many moves too fast.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Webb</title>
		<link>http://nate.koechley.com/blog/2006/02/08/same-language-new-dialect/comment-page-1/#comment-508</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Webb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2006 21:56:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nate.koechley.com/blog/?p=370#comment-508</guid>
		<description>I like how you&#039;ve broke that down.  I do think we need to change expectations so users will start to try richer interactions on the web.  We&#039;ve got to move on in this respect but it&#039;s got to happen gradually and I think introducing these things as an alternative method of interaction is the key.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like how you&#8217;ve broke that down.  I do think we need to change expectations so users will start to try richer interactions on the web.  We&#8217;ve got to move on in this respect but it&#8217;s got to happen gradually and I think introducing these things as an alternative method of interaction is the key.</p>
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